BRRRR.com's Joel Kraut: Why Real Estate Is Relationship Capital

Nicki Benvenuti:0:00
Um, so today with us today we have uh Joel Crouch from uh brrr burr.com. Uh, buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat, and it has a proven framework for real estate investors to build passive income. Thank you for being here with us today, Joel.

Joel Kraut:0:11
Thank you very much, Nicki. Thanks for having us on. We appreciate the opportunity to come and speak with everybody and meet you and your audience.

Nicki Benvenuti:0:17
Absolutely. We're we're very excited to have you. Um, so we're a lot of the audience is entrepreneurs. So, what gap in the market did you see that made bird worth building?

Joel Kraut:0:28
Well, for us, we'd been in the real estate markets for a long time. I started out as a trader on Wall Street, and I was a proprietary options trader. So, I was there from sort of like the beginning, 1996, before it was a cool thing to do. And you could start to see it grow over time, over the next decade. And then obviously we the world, not just we, but everyone ran into this sort of great defining moment of 2008. and it changed a lot of people's lives, including my own. So, you know, I never thought I'd ever make a comeback from that disastrous time in the markets. And what sort of started to happen over 2011, 12, and 14, the markets started to stabilize. Normal people, for lack of a better term, had the opportunity to get access to some of the properties. There were just so many that banks were stuck with and different organizations had. And you figured out pretty quickly, all the smart people out there figured out quick, hey, if I buy one of these, I do a little bit of fix up work or I just take it off the distress list. I can then remarket it and make a profit. And it was really the birth of an industry. So, you know, that really drove us to where we are today. And that really gave me the legs that I needed to have the opportunity to make a comeback. So, I feel incredibly fortunate. There was never any guarantee that that would happen. I had no idea what was going to happen. Honestly, there was a six week period in my life where I don't know if I should get off the couch. I was afraid to get off the couch. I'd put my foot down on the floor and you know the room would spin know type of feeling that many people around the country experience. But you know when it happens to you it's a depression. When it happens to them it's a recession, right? So it was right at home on my doorstep and we we had to figure it out immediately. And we got very fortunate that, you know, the world sort of began to stabilize and and it had nothing to do with me on the disaster and it really didn't have anything to do with me on the recurrence, but I was willing to put the effort in and just show up every day and, you know, be resilient like we always tell people. And I was basically just crazy enough to show up every day and just keep trying. You know, that was when people ask, I really feel like that was the difference maker for me personally.

Nicki Benvenuti:2:49
And I guess that ties into my next question, which is going to be what was the hardest thing for you to learn um in building this business.

Joel Kraut:2:55
For me, it was really to understand leverage much better. Um you know, we're all prone, we have a phone, we flip through Instagram every day or Facebook or whatever other social media platforms you're on. And you know, people are constantly advertising the opportunity to get money for what feels like for free. And it can be used really, really well. But like anything in life that takes discipline to do that. And when you lose your discipline, which I did because I took shortcuts, you know, you get to a place where almost at that moment, that moment is usually when you're really doing really, really well and really big and you feel almost infallible. They, whoever they is, they show you that you're not. And that's exactly what happened to me. I had hund, you know, over 100 units and owned a lot of properties and had a lot of tenants. And that recession hit and people told me they weren't going to be able to pay their rent. They were going to get unemployment. They didn't want to give it to me because they didn't know how long they'd be out of work. And I got to a point where I had so many I couldn't even afford the eviction process. So I I just basically put my head in the sand for a while and it became a math equation of when I would just run out of money. So, you know, it sounds cute, it sounds fun, it's awesome when it all works perfect, but when you have that type of leverage, and I'm talking about 100 plus%. And the music slows down. Doesn't even have to stop. It just slows down, you have a monstrous problem on your hand, and that was me. I was a fireball out of control. So you know in this business now that experience has helped us pay a lot more attention one with our own investments how we fund those how we work with investors on the journey of trying to build long-term wealth and I don't want to say discourage people from just using all this free money but we want to help them really focus on using it wisely and being under control for themselves and not just doing things because it looks cool on Instagram, you know, or HDTV makes it sound so simple, right? Know there's just basic fundamental core fundamentals of of financial literacy and we want to make sure people understand those. You know, people living on credit cards. It makes me nervous.

Nicki Benvenuti:5:15
Sure.

Joel Kraut:5:15
I stopped doing that a long time ago. I learned that from my own clients. Uh, you know, after my own disasters, you know, it's it's um a huge percentage of my clients are foreignb born. And what I've learned from their cultures are if you can't really afford it twice, you don't really need it. Which is sort of like the mantra. And truthfully, as silly as it sounds, there's a lot of truth in that. There's a huge, huge difference between want and need. And in America, we don't do such a good job of differentiation. And we put way too much glory, fame, good look, whatever it is, value. I don't even want to use the word value because it's not really valuable, but on way too many of these luxury good items where people almost feel pressured into buying them or getting them and you know weeks later you have nothing. It's it's it's insane instead of you know thinking about saving X so that you can cut off another year of work down the road, right? It's just a very different way of looking at things and I learned a lot from my own clients. So, you know, thank God for them.

Nicki Benvenuti:6:24
When you had that rough six week period, tell me about how you got through. What was um what was the breakthrough or series of breakthroughs? Was it, you know, in phases? Was it all at once? Was it like one great investment or tell tell me about what happened?

Joel Kraut:6:35
You know, for me, it was really, you know, what what can I believe in? You know, what what have I done that I could still hold of value? And honestly, it was my education. H I felt like I had accomplished something that no one could take away from me. I did it in a a framework, a time framework that is considered quote normal, right? And I felt like that gave me some basic structure that I could start to build off of again. So it wasn't any one great deal. It was feeling like I didn't get stupid overnight. I mean, the market just changed dramatically. And if I could keep myself together emotionally and start to make more rational decisions again, because I didn't for a little while, you know, maybe I could pull this together. I had no idea I'd ever make a comeback. I just meant, you know, pull it together so that my kids wouldn't think I was insane. I can start to pay my bills again. You know, basic things, right, that we all battle with.

Nicki Benvenuti:7:44
Mhm.

Joel Kraut:7:44
So for me, the education really was a big difference. And to this day, I still have three best friends, and they were the three left out of the hundred when it all went to, you know, in a pot. And those three guys just wouldn't take my woe is me or I can't believe this could happen. How, you know, they they wouldn't accept that from me. And they pushed me, they challenged me. So I've always been very grateful and thankful to them for that and I really respect them a lot for you know hanging in when they didn't they didn't need to. There was nothing in it for them but you know they saw the value in a person and they didn't want to watch the person waste away. So I appreciate that. It taught me how to value people better myself as things started to turn around and I'm much more conscious of that now. And I feel like a much better person to be able to help other people than where I was, you know, back then.

Nicki Benvenuti:8:42
That's fantastic. I'm always telling my kids, they're little, but I'm always trying to tell them about um, you know, the importance of like confidence and it sounds like your education was able to, you know, give you confidence and then, you know, like that growth mindset that came from those connections who wouldn't let you get to. So that's fantastic. Um you'd say that um Burr is less about loans and more about people. Um so what do you think that looks like with your customer experience?

Joel Kraut:9:04
So for us, you know, a lot of our customers are repeat offenders. You know, they're constantly borrowing, you know, two, three, four times a year. We have one gentleman we've been fortunate enough to close for every month for about three years. So he's he's on fire. And and there's people like that. They're truly committed to changing their lives. You know, once they get the bug and they see that they can rotate the money, they understand what they're doing. They build a box that they like and feel comfortable with, they execute. The scariest thing is doing your first and second deals. You're not sure what's going to happen. Can I really do this? All the normal things any human would go through. But as you begin to get through that, especially if you build some systems on the backside and you build a framework that you feel comfortable with executing upon so you you're not all over the place trying to do everything. That's really really tough. I've learned that financially the hard way myself. You know what's it called? FOMO. Is that what it is? Fear of missing out. Y you need to stay away from that and figure out, you know, the one, two, three max things that you really feel like you have your arms around and you understand well and you execute those strategies. You know, not every strategy works in every market all the time forever. So, we have to be conscious of that. But, you know, at the same time, you can't go try to execute 18 strategies. You know, you're not Superman or Superwoman. That's just not going to work.

Nicki Benvenuti:10:31
No. You know, especially not when kids once kids get in Mexico, right? [laughter] I mean, you have lot right to your point, you have a life going on.

Joel Kraut:10:38
Yep. You know, if you have households, you have children, whatever is going on.

Nicki Benvenuti:10:43
Yeah.

Joel Kraut:10:43
And you're taking time away from that. So, that time away from it has to be organized or it's going to just be pure chaos on both sides. And that's not what you're getting into this for. You're trying to get improvement, not chaos. You know, we could do chaos by ourselves. We don't need to add things to it.

Nicki Benvenuti:10:53
[laughter] I love that. You definitely want improvement and not chaos.

Joel Kraut:11:00
Absolutely.

Nicki Benvenuti:11:00
So I know that speed is something that you know people talk a lot about in um you know like the financial industry. How do you balance speed with good underwriting and risk discipline?

Joel Kraut:11:13
So I I tell one of my partners on the investment side say look you know you're going to be fabulously wealthy if you could just go really fast slowly. To your exact point you can't shortcut it. You have to look at the math. The math is the only thing in our lives that won't lie to us. I have seven children. Everyone's a storyteller on a certain day of the week, right? I have two ex-wives. You know, someone said, you know, if she said it was okay, you said it was. You don't hear that all the time if you have kids. But the math equations don't lie. So, if you're not going to look at the numbers and be honest with yourself, no one else is, and you're going to lose money. It's not a guarantee that you'll make money all the time, but you're trying to do this on a probability basis and giving yourself the highest and best all the time. So, you got to go fast because other people are going to be evaluating also. And when there's a good deal, it goes quick. So, you can't go slowly, but you can't shortcut such to not do your homework.

Nicki Benvenuti:12:20
Speaking of homework, what loan product has seen the biggest increase in demand lately?

Joel Kraut:12:25
Well, I I would say the DSCR loan, the debt service coverage ratio loans have become all the rage out there. You know, people are doing these without tax returns, no personal income verification, no W2s, no payubs, and if you have the audacity to make the payments, guys like us won't even put them on your credit report. So, you know, you can imagine some people out there have 100 loans and no one knows unless they really truly look it up. So, you're finding a lot more high net wealth, longtime investors that have big portfolios that want really simplicity. They have very low loan to value loan ratios. They don't want to be scrutinized by a bank anymore. They don't want to get Q-tipped by Wells Fargo. and they just want to refy these two properties that they've owned for like 25 years. So why don't we just give them to the DSCR guys, let them do those, you know, it's probably the same rate as a bank or maybe an eighth higher, but it's just so much easier. So let's do that. And then they'll concentrate on their bigger purchases with the banks or Fanny May and Freddy Mack on the bigger side. So you're finding a you'd be surprised a lot more excellent credit, stronger financial type people using those types of loans now where in the beginning everyone felt like well you know if you can't qualify that's the way to do it but that's not really accurate for what all of our portfolios look like. It's very different than where we started seven 10 years ago.

Nicki Benvenuti:13:53
I will say this in our marketing analysis for you, DSCR loans definitely are a key word that is associated with your u company but um you know that but it's very very competitive. So absolutely okay that doesn't surprise me that that was your answer. Um so going back for a minute so education seems like it's central to your brand. Um so um you mentioned um like systems and frameworks and like one you know one two three things. Can you go through a couple things that um you know people who might be interested in starting with you or um just starting out might want to know?

Joel Kraut:14:27
Well, I think for all of us, you know, we're going to start very small and we're trying to figure out what's the best way to go about it. And a lot of people go buy a single family house or a condominium and sort of get started that way as an investment. And then the temptation is to start to do it again and then keep managing them yourselves. and you're trying to figure out at what point that you reach the tipping point where am I going to take this from Excel or handwritten notes in a notebook to computer systems. They can be very simple software programs. There's a lot of great things out there for property management software and you know what am I going to use to even carry and take care of and monitor my own personal budget, right? Because I have to have a budget if I'm going to be successful long term. It can't, nothing can be haphazard. It won't work. I've proven it myself by blowing myself to smitherines. Like, it just doesn't work. You can't just out earn your costs. It you can only do it for a certain period of time, and then you just run out of juice for a little while, and then that's really, really debilitating. So, we want to help people early in their cycle, make sure they have their house in order, for lack of a better term. You know, we meet some people and they're into chaos mode. They they just need help getting their credit together. They they need help understanding finance. They really haven't come from environments where that's been prevalent. And I'm no genius by any means, but I do know that I can't save money at 2 to 4% and pay credit cards at 29 and win. So, we need to help people understand that and really start to believe it because you wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure you meet them, too. But tens of thousands of people across America think they have some money and save some money and they have 5,000 to 15,000 in savings sitting in a bank or a brokerage account at, you know, I don't know, 2 and a half% interest right now.

Nicki Benvenuti:16:25
Yeah. Yet they have Yeah.

Joel Kraut:16:25
They got $60,000 of credit card debt and they're comfortable with it. They're comfortable with it because their three best friends at Chase Visa, American Express, and Discover have lulled America to sleep. They've made it easy to get high on credit because they're making a fortune and we're getting crushed. I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but I feel like it's my responsibility to point that out to people because you can't win long term that way. It doesn't work. Markets are not going up 40% a year. I don't care what podcast you're on. It is not real. Bitcoin doesn't double every night, right? I mean, you have to be a realist. And you know, even if you listen to Warren Buffett, who you know, many people in America will think is the smartest financier or saver investor ever, he'll tell you he made like 90% of his income post 60 or 65 years old, all through compound interest.

Nicki Benvenuti:17:23
I just read the psychology of money and are mesmerized by that.

Joel Kraut:17:30
Yeah.

Nicki Benvenuti:17:30
[laughter] Fantastic book. Really simple read, right?

Joel Kraut:17:30
Yeah.

Nicki Benvenuti:17:30
Very.

Joel Kraut:17:30
It makes you feel something and it feels like it makes you feel like you could do it too by the way.

Nicki Benvenuti:17:37
Right.

Joel Kraut:17:37
Yeah.

Nicki Benvenuti:17:37
Didn't make it seem hard.

Joel Kraut:17:43
No. But we don't spend enough time. I really feel like that's a big big shortcoming of our educational system in America, which I participated in. We don't do a good enough job of laying this out for young people. so they can get excited about it, right? And and start to think about that and and I feel like that's really a shame for our society and and it's it shows, right? We have so much value put on all short-term oriented things and someone that'll turn around to you, Nicki, and say, "Oh, you know, hik's lucky." Like you're watching Nicki after 18 years of savings. What do you mean she's lucky? You didn't watch the first five years when she didn't go on, you know, two week gala vacations. She went on four and five day trips with her family at rational places, not the most expensive. She didn't take all the fun away from herself, but she saw value in the future. You know, I tell people all the time like, "What is 90 minus 30?" And you know, of course, people look at you like you're nuts and you know, maybe it's a trick question. Someone will go, "Well, 60." Like, well, it's the rest of your life, right? And who do you want to be? Like, if you want to be the coolest person in the room, the coolest person in the room is not the best looking guy anymore. It's not the guy making the most money today. It's the man or woman who can control how they live every day of those 60 years.

Nicki Benvenuti:19:11
Oh, interesting.

Joel Kraut:19:11
That is the coolest person in the room. That's the person people want to be around, right? That's the person people gravitate to.

Nicki Benvenuti:19:16
We never looked at it that way. But that is true.

Joel Kraut:19:22
[laughter] You know, I I would take my son sometimes to the mall parking lot and I just say, "Look, just look at the cars and look who gets out of them together. Look, all of our wants, desires, priorities change as we get older. I'm not saying they get thrown out. That's not what I mean. But, you know, you you understand when you know, you go through your 20s into your 30s and, you know, you're thinking about maybe building a family and, you know, who can I do that with? Who do I feel like will respect me? Who's going to treat me and my family correctly? Who can I count on? Those are different answers than whoever you got excited about in high school. So, you want to build yourself into that person so you've earned the right to be that person. Right? Or else what are you doing? Like 85% which you know 70% of all statistics are made up. But some huge percentage of people out there unfortunately are building and living lives they're just trying to survive. I was one for a while.

Nicki Benvenuti:20:19
Absolutely.

Joel Kraut:20:19
But you know I I I torture my kids to build lives they love. You know don't don't spend years toiling at something you hate just to make money. like it it I know you need to make money but you can right so start to figure out what you actually like to do and don't listen to all the people who've never done it who tell you you can't make any money at it right there's so many high netw wealth people that were you know the outcast in high school the nerd or whatever you want to call it and you know now everyone's begging him for a job right right so we you know We judge so quickly, but we have no right to judge.

Nicki Benvenuti:21:08
That's true.

Joel Kraut:21:08
I just feel like, you know, too many people in our country just and I can only speak about our country because I haven't traveled outside the US except for the Caribbean. That's the truth. I know a lot of people from around the world because a lot of them are clients at this point, thank God. But I feel like so many people just they don't really believe in themselves. you know, they say they do, but if push comes to shove, they they're really going to ask you for help because they don't really believe they can push it over the finish line. And that's a shame. You know, again, I know it's not on our schools to do that. And, you know, it's this combination of school and family, and families, you know, don't look the same as they used to, but, you know, we kind of lost our way a bit, and waiting for the government is not going to be the right strategy to fix that. So, I feel like being part of the equation is important to talk to young people, do things like this and and get the message out that it's okay to be kind. It's okay to be good. Cool is good, you know, and good is cool. And you don't have to take shortcuts. I'm living proof. Taking shortcuts got me to zero and minus zero. And there's a lot of proof of it on the internet from me. My stuff is out there. So, it's no big secret. No, not you know I used to be really embarrassed about it but it came out it didn't kill me to the earlier question point and you know from there we move forward and you know people are human and humans make mistakes and it doesn't have to be a death sentence and I think in community you can find strength and from there you never know what people are capable of. I I always say the people who come from the least means that get to neutral and still are doing something they like are the most dangerous because they will just never take their foot off the gas because they they know what it's like not to have and they never want to repeat it and they can see, feel, and taste the opportunity and they don't look at it like a given or a grudgingly. They see it as opportunity. Like those people are tough to be in the way of and they will run you right over in a positive way. But they're going and you could either jump on with them, learn from them quick, see what they're doing and adapt or you're going to get run over.

Nicki Benvenuti:23:30
I was just reading Adam Grant's new book. It's called Hidden Potential. And he talks about how um certain people just gify things naturally and then they end up loving it. like Stephen Curry had to like score, you know, 21 points in a minute or something, you know, in practice or, you know, he'd have to start all over again and, you know, just those little things. So, it just very much reminded me of what you were saying.

Joel Kraut:23:48
Yeah. It's like um someone who wasn't David Gogggins, who a lot of people love or think is just completely out of his mind because he's just I think both.

Nicki Benvenuti:24:00
[laughter] Yes, he's definitely both.

Joel Kraut:24:00
Yeah. But his core point that you know that as a human we can all do so much more than where we push ourselves to. There's just tremendous truth in that.

Nicki Benvenuti:24:11
Oh, absolutely. You know, absolutely.

Joel Kraut:24:11
I like Ed Mlet too a lot. I read one of his books once where it's the power of one more. And sometimes I just catch myself at the end of the night just doing one more thing and and I kind of remember that. I've seen him a few times on the road. So, you know, just give him the fist pump and go. But you know, it's like you just find strength in what seem to be normal people like that.

Nicki Benvenuti:24:36
Absolutely.

Joel Kraut:24:36
And I think that's what people really want today. I mean, it'd be great to be Leonardo DiCaprio, I guess. But I'm sure he has his issues, too. And most people just can't relate to him. But they talk to you and I and other people like us, and they feel more comfortable and in and just being themselves and allowing themselves to feel good about themsel. And then you've done something great.

Nicki Benvenuti:24:58
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Joel Kraut:24:58
Yeah, we're in that Andy Warhol period where everybody's living their 15 seconds of fame and, you know, we're all getting our three seconds on each other's feet.

Nicki Benvenuti:25:09
Absolutely. With that in mind, like what um what do you say to a firsttime investor and then whenever you you know, speak with them, you know, let's just say their finances aren't quite ready. What would you say to them?

Joel Kraut:25:21
Look, I I think it's a really important question. I don't think anyone should ever wait. Okay? I don't think anyone should ever worry about their credit. I think they should worry about their credit to build it, but they should not not invest in real estate because they don't have credit.

Nicki Benvenuti:25:32
Oh, interesting. Okay, tell me more.

Joel Kraut:25:32
To be an investor in real estate, you need two of three things. The three things are you need to be able to show people you're willing to work consistently. Show up, be present, learn. You need to begin to learn how to source deals, find where they are, and you need to either have or know where to find money. If you can put two of those together, you can always get the third.

Nicki Benvenuti:26:02
So, if you can source deals and get money, then you would need what was the first one?

Joel Kraut:26:08
A hard worker.

Nicki Benvenuti:26:08
Oh, okay.

Joel Kraut:26:08
Someone who's willing to go to the job site every day for me.

Nicki Benvenuti:26:08
Gotcha.

Joel Kraut:26:08
That was There's tons of those people. Tons tons of contractors out there and other people who willing to become pseudocontractors. There's a lot of orthodontists, a lot of lawyers in America. Tons of lawyers, right? Accountants, all types of professionals who have families, who have children, who don't have time for another 40-hour gig a week, but they have some money. And America is only number one in one thing. You know what that is? Greed.

Nicki Benvenuti:26:40
I was going to say ambition, but okay.

Joel Kraut:26:46
Greed. Money wants to make money.

Nicki Benvenuti:26:46
Yes.

Joel Kraut:26:46
So, if you have money sitting at 3, 4% or zero in your in your self-directed IRA, and somebody like me comes to you and says, you know, Nicki, I'm going to do this deal. Why don't you put up $50,000? You'll get a preferred return of 8% and then 50% of the upside, and I'll get 50% of the upside, and you have a first lean on the property, and I'll do all the work. Now, if we have some trust together already, you've seen me do some other things, you know, some of my track record, that might sound reasonable to you. Yes, we have tons of people like that. And they end up earning 12, 18, 22, 24% of their money. If they annualize it, 50% sometimes if we flip the house in six months. So, it's a solution for both of us. And in the last few years, no one's asked me what my credit score was. No one's pulled a credit report on me. No one's done a background search. I tell them upfront the problems. That's true because I don't I want to be transparent.

Nicki Benvenuti:27:48
Mhm.

Joel Kraut:27:48
But because of what we physically do, we build that trust and we're telling them, look, you're in first position. You can hold it. We don't care. Which also helps build trust, too, right? You know, I'm good with that. So, people spend too much time on real estate. I think it's one of the biggest mistakes real estate investors make, especially when they're early at it. The real estate game is relationship capital. It is not real estate. What I just described to you was based on trust. It wasn't based me being able to nail a nail straight to be able to find a better deal than 42 other people came to talk to you. You trusted me. And that's where that develops from. being a hard worker consistent. If you say X, you actually do X or very damn close to it. Consistently, not one time, right? Just like in relationships, it's all relationship capital. And we are not taught to put enough emphasis on that, enough value on it, and it hurts. Look, when I start out speaking, you're trying to get a hook that can get everybody involved quick. I ask a simple question. Has anybody out in the audience today ever had a ever had a problem in life? The hands go up.

Nicki Benvenuti:29:10
Yeah.

Joel Kraut:29:10
Has anybody ever solved a problem in life? There's always a couple comedians that put their hands down, but for most people, they've solved one, right? So, you're an experienced real estate investor. And what do I mean? Your whole job to become an investor, not someone who spends money, but an investor, is to go find problems and solve them. You're just going to attach real estate to the problem. If you start to think of it that way, it's not as overwhelming.

Nicki Benvenuti:29:36
That's interesting.

Joel Kraut:29:36
So, it's not the best real estate flippers that I know, fix and flip players are single divorced moms.

Nicki Benvenuti:29:41
Really? Why?

Joel Kraut:29:47
Let's think about it logically for a minute. Who has to budget better? Who is working logistics all the time? Who is a time management expert? Last I checked, these are all very important things that go into fixing and flipping houses. Some of the biggest, most important things.

Nicki Benvenuti:30:06
That's really interesting.

Joel Kraut:30:06
But no one stands in front of them and slows it down enough to those basic principles so they can think of it that way. And now they're not overwhelmed. Hey, I could do that. I do do that. I I'm good at that. Like you can see people's metamorphosis as they walk through that themselves when they're in the audience and you broke it down that way for them. That doesn't mean everybody becomes a flipper in 10 seconds, but you're taking a lot of the myth away. You're taking a lot of the fear away, and you're giving somebody an opportunity to objectively review it for themselves, which is, you know, what I feel like my responsibility is. It's not to be overwhelming. I mean, look, we're a lender. At the end of the day, loans are really boring. We're going to spend the whole day, you and I, fighting about an eighth in the rate across America. I mean, that's not very exciting life to live. but trying to figure out what you're trying to do and and how old are your children, what area of the country do you live in, how can we do this so that the next 20 years they're in great shape, you know, what are we going to do together to be able to do that? That's the interesting part of the whole thing to me. That's the fun part, too, because I now know some of those kids and know some of those kids are borrowing from us now at my age. You know, I like to say I'm celebrating my 30th year. makes me sound younger than just saying I'm doing this for 30 years and sound so old. But, you know, it's those opportunities where you watch people just grow and it's it's awesome. It's really it's amazing.

Nicki Benvenuti:31:29
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, you really are less about loans, more about people.

Joel Kraut:31:36
Yeah. I mean, I was very fortunate to begin to understand how important that is and took me a long time to get that smart. I had to take some punches in the face to get there and uh I'm I'm thankful for it because it's been a much more enjoyable ride that way. I can't stress to people enough, you know, we're capable of so much more than we really believe. And I know it's a very cliche thing and it's, you know, it's darkest before the dawn and all that stuff and but you know, if you're really stressed out, you can't deal, you know, find your community. There's people there that really want to help you. They want to see you do well. And I think there's a lot more good people out there than people really think. I know we listen to the news sometimes and it can really turn our stomachs and turn us off and but that's not really humans out there. There's a lot of good humans and you can find some and they'll help you a lot. I I've traveled the country for the last few years. There's a lot of good people out there and it's it's a lot of fun and enjoyable that way when you meet them. It's it's life-changing honestly. It's it's really good. Um I feel very fortunate they've had the chance to make a comeback. I mean, if anybody ever just wants to talk, they're absolutely encouraged to reach out to me. You can find me through our website. It's easy. Um, you know, and we will respond and I'll happy to set up something to talk and at night or weekend, whatever you need. Um, I remember what it's like to be on the brink and I know how difficult that can be for people and I want to help them and I feel really fortunate that I had the opportunity to make a comeback. So, you know, it's a good place. At the end of the day, good business is all people.

Nicki Benvenuti:33:21
So, absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Joel, for your time today. And um Thank you.

Joel Kraut:33:28
Thanks for having me.